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Re: [Public WebGL] WebGL API for available memory?



On 13-03-06 07:59 PM, Kenneth Russell wrote:
> Providing the currently available video memory is not possible in the
> general case. For example, GL_ATI_meminfo has three different classes
> of memory, and within each class, both a main pool and something
> called "auxiliary memory" which is not precisely defined. On Mac OS,
> the AMD OpenGL driver doesn't currently provide the "Current Free
> Video Memory" variable as the Intel and NVIDIA drivers do -- though
> this is just a bug which is going to be fixed. In addition, unified
> memory architectures obsolete the notion of dedicated video memory.
>
> The last time this topic was raised within various working groups in
> the Khronos organization, there was strong opposition to exposing this
> information.
>
> This having been said, I would like to at least provide via a WebGL
> extension the amount of dedicated video memory on the system, if using
> a dedicated GPU, or, if using a unified memory architecture, the
> amount of physical memory on the system. This could at least provide a
> vague idea to applications how much video memory they can reasonably
> allocate, even if it doesn't take into account other running
> applications on the system. Before making any such extension final, it
> would be necessary to test it with real-world applications. Evan,
> would you be willing to help test such an extension and see how well
> it works for your use case?
I think I agree with Ben that having just a very rough metric would be
useful.

I'm not sure that it will be possible to give a firm precise
measurement, as the notion of "how much memory there is" varies too much
from a device to another:
 - some devices have dedicated texture memory, while some others have
unified memory
 - beyond actual memory, there is virtual memory; some devices have
virtualized texture memory, some haven't.
 - there are many variations of what the above concepts mean on
different devices.

Not being able to give any kind of precisely defined measurement, we
could at least give a very rough lower bound.

How we compute it would depend on the device type. For mobile devices,
we could return 1/4 times the amount of unified memory. So on a low-end
phone with 256 M unified memory, we could return 64M which would match
where we start observing OOMs in practice. That heuristic may need to be
tweaked for higher-end devices, just throwing an idea here.

For PCs we could default to min (1/4 * physical RAM, 1 G) and possibly
override that if we can determine with some GL extension that there is
more memory available.

Benoit

>
> -Ken
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Florian Bösch <pyalot@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The two extension by nvidia/ati seem to cover some common functionality,
>> there are also a number of ways to query values like that trough DirectX.
>> These cover the rather tricky topic of telling how much is free (not just
>> how much is available). We would be in principle free to define a
>> WEBGL_meminfo extension, that collates this information behind a common
>> interface. It is not possible on mobile devices (and not very useful on
>> devices with shared memory). But it's biggest use would not be on mobile
>> devices anyway.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Ben Vanik <benvanik@google.com> wrote:
>>> This is probably the most asked for feature I've seen with WebGL. I still
>>> really wish it would be 'solved' - even if it's not perfect, *any*
>>> information (you have <512mb or >512mb of vram) would be immediately helpful
>>> to developers *and* users (who are getting crashed tabs, sluggish machines,
>>> or worse).
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Evan Wallace <evan.exe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> You are correct that it's not part of the OpenGL spec, however there are
>>>> often ways to query this information. Look at these extensions, for example:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://developer.download.nvidia.com/opengl/specs/GL_NVX_gpu_memory_info.txt
>>>> http://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/ATI/meminfo.txt
>>>>
>>>> The number reported also doesn't need to be exact since it's only a hint.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Patrick Baggett
>>>> <baggett.patrick@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> There is no such API to do this from OpenGL / OpenGL ES itself, so it is
>>>>> not possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Evan Wallace <evan.exe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I am interested in building complex WebGL applications that operate on
>>>>>> large datasets. One of the main barriers for me is that there is no way to
>>>>>> tell how much memory is available on the user's machine. If a WebGL app uses
>>>>>> too much memory then it starts thrashing the GPU, which causes lots of lag
>>>>>> for the entire OS and is a very bad user experience. I've currently been
>>>>>> dealing with it by trying to use as little memory as possible and swapping
>>>>>> out memory with the CPU as the computation progresses but it's a shame not
>>>>>> to run faster on hardware with more memory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My first attempt to get this information was to look at the RENDERER
>>>>>> string and then compile a map of graphics cards to memory sizes, but from
>>>>>> what I understand this information has been removed to prevent system
>>>>>> fingerprinting and fragile string-based version sniffing (see
>>>>>> https://www.khronos.org/webgl/public-mailing-list/archives/1011/threads.html#00205).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My second attempt was to slowly allocate more and more memory until a
>>>>>> slowdown is detected, but this is undesirable for several reasons. It takes
>>>>>> a lot of time to perform which hurts startup time, it's a fragile
>>>>>> measurement since lots of other things can also cause similar slowdowns
>>>>>> (another app opening, for example), and once the GPU memory limit has been
>>>>>> exceeded the lag due to thrashing can be pretty bad (I've observed
>>>>>> system-wide graphical pauses lasting around a second) and/or cause other
>>>>>> stability problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm wondering if it would be possible to develop an API to determine
>>>>>> the amount of available memory on the GPU, probably as a WebGL extension.
>>>>>> Since it provides the relative amount currently left instead of the absolute
>>>>>> total amount, it would be both much more useful to WebGL apps and far less
>>>>>> useful for fingerprinting. Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Evan Wallace
>>>>>>
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